Episode 22: "The Grammar Police Are Coming — What Do I Do?"
Comprehensible Input teachers often face pressure to teach grammar explicitly, and this episode tackles how to respond without losing your mind.
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In this episode of Comprehend THIS!, we talk about grammar demands from parents, colleagues, and admin — and how to explain, defend, and trust CI instruction with humor and confidence.
Need classroom-ready CI resources that actually support acquisition? Check out the CI Survival Kit: https://imim.us/kit.
comprehensible input, grammar instruction debate, CI teaching strategies, language teacher podcast, grammar vs acquisition, world language teaching, CI classroom, teacher boundaries, language acquisition research, teacher humor
Hosts:
- Scott Benedict - https://www.instagram.com/immediateimmersion
- Chris Stolz - https://www.facebook.com/ChrisStolz
- Jackie Deming-Plunk -
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- Assessment Academy - https://imim.us/academy
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Host: Scott Benedict — Immediate Immersion
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Transcript
Good morning everybody and how is
Speaker:everybody doing today?
Speaker:This is our second
Speaker:episode of season three.
Speaker:So picture this.
Speaker:You're feeling good about your lesson.
Speaker:Your kids are understanding and then
Speaker:someone says, "But
Speaker:where's the grammar practice?"
Speaker:Cool, cool, cool.
Speaker:Today's episode is the
Speaker:grammar police are coming.
Speaker:What do I do?
Speaker:And it's for every CI teacher who's ever
Speaker:been asked to justify
Speaker:not handing out conjugation
Speaker:charts like party favors.
Speaker:I'm joined by Chris Stoltz and Jackie
Speaker:Deming-Plunk and we're talking about how
Speaker:to hold your ground,
Speaker:explain your choices without spiraling,
Speaker:and protect your sanity
Speaker:when worksheets are demanded
Speaker:in the name of rigor.
Speaker:If you've ever nodded politely while
Speaker:screaming internally,
Speaker:you're in the right place.
Speaker:We'll be right back
Speaker:after these short messages.
Speaker:Ever feel like you're clinging to the
Speaker:edge of your teacher
Speaker:planner, just hoping today's
Speaker:lesson magically appears?
Speaker:Enter the CI Survival Kit, a monthly
Speaker:membership made for
Speaker:teachers who love comprehensible
Speaker:input but also love not reinventing the
Speaker:wheel every Sunday night.
Speaker:Each month you get fresh, ready-to-use
Speaker:lessons, time-saving
Speaker:tools, and just enough structure
Speaker:to keep your teaching life together.
Speaker:No stress, no guilt, just monthly help
Speaker:from someone who gets it.
Speaker:Sign up at mm.us.survival and let the
Speaker:Survival Kit do the
Speaker:heavy lifting for once.
Speaker:Welcome to Comprehend This, real talk for
Speaker:real language teachers.
Speaker:No drills, no dry theory, just honest
Speaker:stories, practical ideas,
Speaker:and a reminder you're not
Speaker:alone in the CI trenches.
Speaker:Let's dive in.
Speaker:Hey and welcome.
Speaker:How's everybody doing this morning?
Speaker:We got Chris and Jackie in the house.
Speaker:Howdy, howdy.
Speaker:How's it going, everybody?
Speaker:It is a bad Sunday morning because we all
Speaker:had the time change, at least here on the
Speaker:Western Hemisphere.
Speaker:So it is actually an hour
Speaker:earlier than it should be.
Speaker:I mean, it's an hour
Speaker:later than it should be.
Speaker:We lost an hour of sleep, so we're all
Speaker:kind of a little bit sleepy here.
Speaker:Jackie's a little bit better off being in
Speaker:Tennessee than us on the West Coast.
Speaker:Chris is coming from
Speaker:Vancouver and Jackie is in Tennessee.
Speaker:Chris give us a little bit about
Speaker:information about
Speaker:yourself since you're new to us.
Speaker:Oh, I started learning comprehensible
Speaker:input, how to use it in 2013.
Speaker:Thank you to Michelle Metcalf.
Speaker:And then I did lots of reading and I
Speaker:experimented with TPRS and story
Speaker:listening and random
Speaker:this and that.
Speaker:And yeah, I haven't looked back since.
Speaker:But I do still use, I would like the
Speaker:listeners to know that I
Speaker:do still use a textbook, the
Speaker:Avon Samus series.
Speaker:I use three of them.
Speaker:And they're very important to me because
Speaker:they hold up my computer
Speaker:monitor on my computer.
Speaker:Very important thing to
Speaker:have textbooks around for.
Speaker:That is the most redeeming quality of the
Speaker:Avon Samus textbook
Speaker:that I've heard today.
Speaker:I am a personal victim of teaching with
Speaker:the Avon Samus textbook.
Speaker:We all are.
Speaker:I have never taught with that one, but
Speaker:mine is sitting on my
Speaker:marker sill of my whiteboard
Speaker:so that if an administrator comes in,
Speaker:it's front and center
Speaker:so that at least they can
Speaker:see that I know there's a textbook there.
Speaker:But I don't use a laptop so I don't have
Speaker:a desktop to prop up.
Speaker:So I don't have to worry about that.
Speaker:So I just had mine on
Speaker:the on the windowsill.
Speaker:And I haven't had to do it this semester,
Speaker:but usually my last
Speaker:semester I had some kids
Speaker:who really didn't want to play the game.
Speaker:And I just kind of pointed, well, the
Speaker:alternative is the textbook.
Speaker:We can do all those grammar
Speaker:exercises in those textbooks.
Speaker:And that usually got them to be quiet.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, I refresh your memory about you,
Speaker:Jackie, just a little bit
Speaker:because I know you are a
Speaker:frequent flyer with us.
Speaker:Yes, I am.
Speaker:So I am a Spanish
Speaker:teacher in Western Tennessee.
Speaker:That's where I have lived that most of
Speaker:the last 12 years and
Speaker:I've been teaching for the
Speaker:last eight.
Speaker:All but one semester of that was using
Speaker:CIA driven instruction
Speaker:because I did one semester
Speaker:of teaching with a CCD say and it sucked.
Speaker:So that prompted the switch for me.
Speaker:Is there any textbook that doesn't suck?
Speaker:No, no, they're all that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:They're there.
Speaker:Is it partially online,
Speaker:partially textbook one?
Speaker:I can't even think what it's called.
Speaker:Carnegie Learning is.
Speaker:Yeah, I think I liked I liked theirs when
Speaker:I was on a textbook adoption committee.
Speaker:I think I came down between them and I
Speaker:want to say like both says
Speaker:maybe it was like between
Speaker:them and this or this to hire learning
Speaker:series because they had
Speaker:whoever had AP Tamos as a
Speaker:textbook.
Speaker:I picked one of their series.
Speaker:We never bought it or anything.
Speaker:But that was technically a visual
Speaker:adoption for a little
Speaker:minute in that category.
Speaker:I just don't like the or I mean if
Speaker:because we have to be coordinated.
Speaker:So I teach the vocabulary
Speaker:and grammar from the textbook.
Speaker:I just don't use the textbook itself.
Speaker:And I the order of stuff we rearrange the
Speaker:order as it is with us.
Speaker:We teach you how to order which then is
Speaker:complicated because then it
Speaker:adds in words that the kids
Speaker:are supposed to know but really don't.
Speaker:But the order is weird.
Speaker:The things that they teach are weird out
Speaker:of order like in the
Speaker:first chapter in the very
Speaker:first chapter we're teaching time.
Speaker:Oh my God.
Speaker:So in the first chapter we are teaching
Speaker:the numbers one through
Speaker:one hundred and adding
Speaker:time.
Speaker:Hello.
Speaker:Where is some basic stuff that they need
Speaker:to know before time.
Speaker:That's a little complicated to be adding
Speaker:in right in the
Speaker:beginning in the first couple
Speaker:of weeks of school.
Speaker:So I mean they put in their sports and
Speaker:hobbies come in the
Speaker:second half of the book.
Speaker:It's just it's just a weird weird and
Speaker:they don't go and they don't coincide.
Speaker:It's just it's really
Speaker:really a weird order.
Speaker:I don't know where they
Speaker:got their order from at all.
Speaker:But it is what it is.
Speaker:That's the order.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's the order of the textbook.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:I mean most textbooks are like that
Speaker:though where they teach telling time.
Speaker:I've never seen a textbook that didn't
Speaker:teach time in the Praly Minar section.
Speaker:Oh no I've never.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:This is the first
Speaker:textbook I've seen it do.
Speaker:Well I haven't had to use a textbook
Speaker:since when was the last
Speaker:time I used a textbook.
Speaker:2004 was the last time I used a textbook
Speaker:before this current school I'm at.
Speaker:And time was like in like at least
Speaker:chapter three or four.
Speaker:No I can definitely say in a CCD say and
Speaker:I'm like 90 percent
Speaker:sure in Avant-Sémals.
Speaker:It's in the like Praly Minar basic stuff.
Speaker:Like they teach you how to tell the time
Speaker:and the date and your
Speaker:name and you know a lot
Speaker:of stuff like that.
Speaker:It's just I just realized why that's so
Speaker:funny though is because
Speaker:in a lot of Latin cultures
Speaker:and Spain like nobody
Speaker:is on time for anything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So why are why are we teaching the kids
Speaker:how to tell time when
Speaker:it's really just more of
Speaker:a suggestion.
Speaker:Yeah we call it we call
Speaker:it Mexican time over here.
Speaker:People say oh yeah I'm on Mexican time.
Speaker:Yeah and I mean anybody who nowadays goes
Speaker:traveling we're all surrounded by digital
Speaker:devices I mean if you can't say what time
Speaker:it is you can point to
Speaker:it on a phone or whatever
Speaker:you know it's one of those that you know
Speaker:we think is more important than it is.
Speaker:Honestly seeing things in 24-hour format
Speaker:throws them more than anything else.
Speaker:Yeah that's what we have to teach them
Speaker:because everything's
Speaker:in the 24-hour clock.
Speaker:Yeah yeah even though in actual real life
Speaker:in most of Latin
Speaker:America at least where I've
Speaker:been they don't do that.
Speaker:You know they don't say oh it's 1827 they
Speaker:say it's you know it's
Speaker:half past six or whatever
Speaker:from a CCD like that you know.
Speaker:But all official time so they don't miss
Speaker:the train or miss the
Speaker:plane or miss a TV show
Speaker:or business hours those are all in
Speaker:24-hour time those
Speaker:are never in AMPM time.
Speaker:I know it's you know that's true but then
Speaker:again if you think
Speaker:about how we all interact
Speaker:with that kind of information it's on our
Speaker:alerts on our phones or
Speaker:on our emails or whatever
Speaker:right you know it's not like it's not
Speaker:like if you don't know
Speaker:how to say 1745 you're going
Speaker:to miss the train your phone's going to
Speaker:like you know beep at
Speaker:you or your you know about
Speaker:your training your bus or whatever.
Speaker:I'll say our age group does that but our
Speaker:my students do not
Speaker:like to put reminders and
Speaker:stuff on their phones.
Speaker:They do not like I'm like you've got
Speaker:something to do put your
Speaker:due date in your phone oh we
Speaker:don't do that.
Speaker:They'll take a picture of notes on the
Speaker:board but they'll never
Speaker:look at it again but they
Speaker:don't set up reminders or alarms or
Speaker:anything with their phone.
Speaker:Your phone is pretty much a messaging
Speaker:device and a TikTok
Speaker:device and that's about it.
Speaker:But anyway I mean whatever I mean I you
Speaker:know the listers for the
Speaker:listeners who for people
Speaker:who are watching or listening to this or
Speaker:whatever if you know if
Speaker:you're stuck with a textbook
Speaker:and you have to teach that I think one of
Speaker:the most important
Speaker:things at least that I've
Speaker:learned about this is that this boring
Speaker:stuff this boring stuff
Speaker:is spread throughout the
Speaker:year it's easy.
Speaker:You know like with something like time
Speaker:all I do is I just
Speaker:point to the clock once an
Speaker:hour and go okay you know what time is it
Speaker:and the kids are like
Speaker:six thirty and do that
Speaker:in Spanish and ask a couple of questions
Speaker:and they won't they're
Speaker:not going to learn how
Speaker:to tell time in one lesson or unit but if
Speaker:you do that over your
Speaker:five or ten months they'll
Speaker:have it by the end.
Speaker:So if you get rid of the idea that you
Speaker:know time is a concept
Speaker:in a unit and we have to
Speaker:master it in one week and spread it out
Speaker:through the year you know
Speaker:you can meet most of these
Speaker:objectives like time and then you know
Speaker:the higher frequency
Speaker:numbers and so on like you
Speaker:know that's my view how to
Speaker:deal with this kind of thing.
Speaker:And I would agree because I the one of
Speaker:the things I do with
Speaker:grammar always is I look
Speaker:at what grammar I need to teach by the
Speaker:end of the year and then
Speaker:I space it out throughout
Speaker:my year like you said so time it's in all
Speaker:my stories I make
Speaker:sure I put time in all my
Speaker:stories calendar stuff in all the stories
Speaker:so that I'm not teaching it in a two week
Speaker:lesson plan and be done with it it is
Speaker:sprinkled throughout like
Speaker:one of the worst things I
Speaker:noticed that I cannot stand and I've
Speaker:never met a textbook
Speaker:that doesn't do this is one
Speaker:chapter every reflexive verb known to man
Speaker:is presented and then
Speaker:my kids freak out because
Speaker:then they start making verbs that were
Speaker:never reflexive before and
Speaker:are making them reflexive
Speaker:they're going meh soi you know they're
Speaker:putting those kinds of
Speaker:things in there and I'm like
Speaker:just sprinkle them through you don't have
Speaker:to put them all in
Speaker:one chapter that they're
Speaker:supposed to master within two weeks
Speaker:sprinkle them through take
Speaker:a couple here couple there
Speaker:and sprinkle them through so I do it that
Speaker:way so that they are
Speaker:exposed to the grammar
Speaker:throughout the year or semester because
Speaker:we teach in semesters
Speaker:not years they're exposed
Speaker:to it and I assess it late in context I
Speaker:never assess it out of
Speaker:context at all yeah yeah
Speaker:you have to do it you have to do things
Speaker:in context yeah yeah
Speaker:we're all on the same page
Speaker:here yeah so Jackie how do you handle it
Speaker:my some of my
Speaker:colleagues like my my neighbor
Speaker:is is doing things a bit more
Speaker:traditionally and they just
Speaker:gave a you know their level
Speaker:one French test just included a whole
Speaker:bunch of stuff on time
Speaker:and the year and the months
Speaker:and the days and all that kind of thing
Speaker:and I just think I just
Speaker:think you know just spread
Speaker:it out in the year and you'll be fine
Speaker:right yeah but I think I
Speaker:think one issue for a lot
Speaker:of for a lot of teachers is like the one
Speaker:thing that the textbook
Speaker:does give you use that sense
Speaker:of control and organization you know like
Speaker:you can if you're the person who is under
Speaker:pressure maybe from yourself or from your
Speaker:admin to oh no I did I
Speaker:cover this right well
Speaker:the textbook does that for you it's it's
Speaker:got everything all
Speaker:like you know packaged and
Speaker:wrapped up so I can see the appeal you
Speaker:know in some cases like
Speaker:I know I did that right
Speaker:but there's so much more than you know
Speaker:that yeah absolutely how
Speaker:about you Jackie so one
Speaker:of the benefits to living and teaching in
Speaker:Tennessee is that the
Speaker:admin don't really care
Speaker:what I do as long as my students or I
Speaker:don't make problems for
Speaker:them so you know xenophobia
Speaker:works my favor just a little bit
Speaker:sometimes and having admin
Speaker:who have no clue how to speak
Speaker:a lick of Spanish also helps because
Speaker:they're like oh wow she's
Speaker:speaking a lot of Spanish
Speaker:and the kids seem to be speaking Spanish
Speaker:good enough for me you
Speaker:know so for the most part
Speaker:I just get to shut my door and teach I've
Speaker:never been in the
Speaker:department big enough to
Speaker:really have any kind of like strict
Speaker:oversight and like
Speaker:standardization desires so I mean
Speaker:for me I just kind of do what I do now
Speaker:like right now in my
Speaker:regular Spanish two classes
Speaker:I am doing some grammar stuff with them
Speaker:but it's more because I'm
Speaker:trying to buy time because
Speaker:I am trying to get my honors class
Speaker:through the unit that
Speaker:they're on before I start my
Speaker:regular on that unit because I cannot be
Speaker:in two places at the
Speaker:same time in the same unit
Speaker:it just doesn't work in my head so I
Speaker:either need everybody on
Speaker:the same page or in completely
Speaker:different spots but at the same time like
Speaker:we're talking like
Speaker:president indicative conjugations
Speaker:right and they have had me since about
Speaker:August 1st of 2025 so
Speaker:that means that they've had
Speaker:roughly I'm gonna say at least 140 hours
Speaker:of class time with me
Speaker:and just now we're doing
Speaker:like the formal verb notes for president
Speaker:indicative they've seen
Speaker:pretty much all of the forms in
Speaker:a lot of different contexts prior to this
Speaker:and it really made only
Speaker:serves like it's gonna help
Speaker:some students do a little bit better with
Speaker:their communicating
Speaker:because some of them are like not
Speaker:using the right for forms in the present
Speaker:tense like they'll use
Speaker:you know plural third person
Speaker:when they need to use singular and stuff
Speaker:like that so for some of
Speaker:them though it'll help them
Speaker:self-correct that and for the rest of
Speaker:them it'll just be an easy
Speaker:grade and it's still done in a
Speaker:context format I use the grammar and
Speaker:context notes from the comprehensible
Speaker:classroom and you know
Speaker:so when I grade it's still like I'm
Speaker:grading something where
Speaker:they had to use the information
Speaker:in context to communicate something so
Speaker:what I find like with verb
Speaker:conjugations especially is if I
Speaker:teach them explicitly they sit on the top
Speaker:of the head but they don't
Speaker:get into the brain to where
Speaker:they actually use them instinctively so
Speaker:no matter what I do with the
Speaker:explicit teaching it's never
Speaker:going to get past that skull into the
Speaker:brain so I don't do it what I
Speaker:have done to combat that with
Speaker:my textbook colleagues is I've been using
Speaker:notebook LM from Google
Speaker:which is free I will put in a
Speaker:grammar concept I'll copy and paste it
Speaker:what's good about notebook LM
Speaker:it doesn't hallucinate when it
Speaker:comes to CI it only will use the
Speaker:information you give it so I will put in
Speaker:the grammar topic that I
Speaker:need and all the rules and stuff and then
Speaker:I ask it to make a fun colorful
Speaker:infographic as a go-to
Speaker:reference tool for ninth graders or tenth
Speaker:graders or whatever it is and
Speaker:it comes up with some really
Speaker:pretty good infographics that kind of
Speaker:summarize I print those out
Speaker:and give them to the kids and I'm
Speaker:done I'll teach the stuff right here in
Speaker:context but like my level ones we had to
Speaker:learn how to do plural
Speaker:so I made one on plurals and it talks
Speaker:about the exception with the
Speaker:seed of the Z in Spanish I've
Speaker:had to do one with you know the the
Speaker:different does and the us a definite and
Speaker:indefinite articles so
Speaker:I don't really teach that I will give
Speaker:them the infographic point out
Speaker:the things on the infographic
Speaker:and then I'll tell them to use it as a
Speaker:reference piece if they need
Speaker:it except on a test obviously
Speaker:but I don't ever test them on explicit
Speaker:grammar or anything like
Speaker:that out of context it's always
Speaker:within context I always assess grammar
Speaker:and writing and speaking
Speaker:that's best work falls for me to see
Speaker:if they've it's sunk in their brain
Speaker:because I have a kid who can conjugate on
Speaker:a worksheet like nobody's
Speaker:business I don't give worksheets but they
Speaker:can do that but they can't
Speaker:do it orally or unwritten when
Speaker:it actually counts yeah yeah yeah yeah I
Speaker:mean on my sorry go ahead
Speaker:Jackie no it's and basically and
Speaker:that's kind of what I'm saying is that
Speaker:like they've got it all down
Speaker:in here and so basically like
Speaker:putting it on top it's trying to get it
Speaker:to pull it down into their
Speaker:brain and for the ones that do
Speaker:great and for the ones that don't it's
Speaker:also fine because I'm never actually
Speaker:going to give them a
Speaker:grammar test yeah you know their grammar
Speaker:gets tested when they do
Speaker:speaking and writing assessments
Speaker:uh you know so like next week I will
Speaker:probably do a fluency writing and you
Speaker:know we'll see if any
Speaker:of them do a little bit better on the
Speaker:communicating side of it because of what
Speaker:they learn and if they
Speaker:don't oh well it's fine the I was buying
Speaker:time anyway you know and
Speaker:it gives me a checkbox to
Speaker:say yeah I talked to them about it a
Speaker:little bit they've seen verb
Speaker:conjugation chart you know I
Speaker:mean and because a while back I did do a
Speaker:brief lesson on infinitives
Speaker:because I noticed a lot of
Speaker:kids even though I had used constructions
Speaker:with infinitives a lot a
Speaker:lot of kids were still double
Speaker:conjugating verbs and so I just gave them
Speaker:a little lesson and
Speaker:quite a few of them have
Speaker:stopped doing that they picked up on it
Speaker:but again we had had well
Speaker:over 100 hours of class time at
Speaker:that point where they were getting the
Speaker:language and they were
Speaker:building that implicit system
Speaker:so it's it's kind of one of those where
Speaker:like I've taught more
Speaker:grammar this year than I have
Speaker:in a long time and it's mostly just been
Speaker:an experiment just to
Speaker:see how it's working um
Speaker:I've never used these materials before
Speaker:I've had them for a while
Speaker:I was like very well I need
Speaker:something to kind of pat a little bit
Speaker:here so let's do that and
Speaker:see what happens but for the
Speaker:most part like I do pop-up grammar and
Speaker:that's about it yeah that's
Speaker:what I do yeah yeah I mean
Speaker:yeah anything other than that seems like
Speaker:a waste of time you know I have this I
Speaker:mean in my situation
Speaker:we're the really the minority language in
Speaker:my school we have you know
Speaker:the kids have to take French
Speaker:um starting in um well basically in grade
Speaker:eight when they start
Speaker:high school they have to take
Speaker:French and then we have a huge South
Speaker:Asian population and so a
Speaker:lot of kids take Punjabi
Speaker:and which is basically a you know a
Speaker:reading and writing course
Speaker:because they speak it um and um
Speaker:so I have this situation where I
Speaker:occasionally have two blocks of Spanish
Speaker:and sometimes I have one
Speaker:and I have all three levels plus native
Speaker:speakers in the in the
Speaker:same um block and um what I've
Speaker:known I mean I I'm I have a verb chart on
Speaker:the you know in front of the
Speaker:room like above you know like
Speaker:up there behind me or whatever the
Speaker:pretense in the past tense
Speaker:for Spanish verbs and what I've
Speaker:noticed is the kids even when I explain
Speaker:it the kids can't use it is
Speaker:a long story the idea of like
Speaker:okay here's a word in Spanish and I have
Speaker:to think about what it means
Speaker:and then I have to like look
Speaker:at this thing and then I have to like you
Speaker:know um like chop the end
Speaker:off and stick another end on
Speaker:and blah blah blah it just doesn't work
Speaker:the third year kids um are now asking
Speaker:occasional questions
Speaker:or saying things like oh when you
Speaker:conjugate this do you do that but um you
Speaker:know they're the only
Speaker:ones like most um that explicit grammar
Speaker:stuff really doesn't work
Speaker:that well and there's you
Speaker:know there was a um there was an old post
Speaker:on the Yahoo list server um
Speaker:I forget the teacher's name
Speaker:an American woman and she um she had to
Speaker:do I think what Jackie
Speaker:did like you know towards
Speaker:the end of you know whatever her second
Speaker:year with the German um
Speaker:she you know I better teach
Speaker:the kids this explicit stuff and did and
Speaker:they they looked at her
Speaker:and they said oh thank you
Speaker:for the filing system they saw like that
Speaker:that thing is like just a
Speaker:way to represent something
Speaker:that they already knew how to do and not
Speaker:like an instruction guide or
Speaker:whatever you know what I mean
Speaker:and I thought that I think that's awesome
Speaker:I've no explicit teaching
Speaker:I've ever done ends up in
Speaker:the long-term system the only thing that
Speaker:works is input and more
Speaker:input yeah right yeah now I will
Speaker:say this I did teach my kids how to
Speaker:change the text from
Speaker:third person to first person
Speaker:back in the first semester um and that
Speaker:was and and and that was just to kind of
Speaker:and at that point I did the GRS 2.0 for
Speaker:like an entire quarter so they were
Speaker:fairly familiar with
Speaker:how to do it already because they were so
Speaker:used to doing it in
Speaker:class that it didn't really
Speaker:phase them so that also I think kind of
Speaker:helped because I had them
Speaker:do stuff like that as part of
Speaker:like learning the verb conjugations but
Speaker:really I mean it it's it's
Speaker:not gonna make a big difference
Speaker:for a lot of them it's interesting Jackie
Speaker:hearing about your you've
Speaker:got the admin who's basically
Speaker:like well they're speaking Spanish that's
Speaker:good I mean we uh you know
Speaker:we have like much the same
Speaker:thing like we we don't have we don't
Speaker:really have um you know administrative
Speaker:policing or you know
Speaker:anything like that I think partly because
Speaker:they're partly because
Speaker:the Edard man you know
Speaker:they know what they're doing and they're
Speaker:and partly because like
Speaker:life's too short I mean
Speaker:you know administration is a busy job and
Speaker:I'm sure they have
Speaker:better things to do than
Speaker:you know chase teachers around to you
Speaker:know make sure they've uh
Speaker:you know got things covered or
Speaker:whatever they are way more concerned
Speaker:about the tested areas it's
Speaker:usually the colleagues that
Speaker:come about the grammar not the
Speaker:administrators in my
Speaker:experience yeah mine too and if you yeah
Speaker:if you're handing kids off to you know
Speaker:senior teachers are
Speaker:getting them from elsewhere yeah
Speaker:god then they're like right they don't
Speaker:know how to conjugate the uh reflexive
Speaker:bathroom verbs in the
Speaker:blue perfect present you know or whatever
Speaker:right and then well you
Speaker:know when I hear things like
Speaker:that I'm like yeah well you know what I
Speaker:mean I'm pretty sure that
Speaker:whatever you taught them they're
Speaker:not going to retain either because if
Speaker:your focus as a teacher is on like you
Speaker:know units of grammar
Speaker:lists of vocab and you teach that way the
Speaker:best situation the best
Speaker:the most likely possible
Speaker:outcome is going to be that your egghead
Speaker:kids memorize this stuff
Speaker:really well for their final
Speaker:or for their unit test or whatever and
Speaker:the next year it's all
Speaker:forgotten again absolutely you know
Speaker:the ci people and the and the you know
Speaker:the textbook people can
Speaker:can you know bark at each
Speaker:other all they want right but um there's
Speaker:a there's a huge amount of either not
Speaker:learning or forgetting
Speaker:going on you know matter who you are
Speaker:right you know and you brought up a
Speaker:couple points I want
Speaker:to talk about um you know one about the
Speaker:grammar conjugations this
Speaker:is when I tell this story it
Speaker:always comes out a lot more sarcastic
Speaker:than it actually happens so
Speaker:just take that with a grain
Speaker:of salt but I was in an interview once
Speaker:for teaching position and
Speaker:the principal was asking
Speaker:me questions because how do you teach
Speaker:grammar in your classroom and I said I
Speaker:don't and she's like
Speaker:what you're a language teacher why don't
Speaker:you teach grammar well I
Speaker:mean I teach it but I don't
Speaker:explicitly teach it and she goes what I
Speaker:don't get that and I'm like
Speaker:so what what did you teach
Speaker:before you became a principal hoping she
Speaker:wasn't going to say math
Speaker:or science she said I was an
Speaker:english teacher I'm like oh great this is
Speaker:perfect and I said were you
Speaker:a literature english teacher
Speaker:or were you a comp and grammar teacher
Speaker:she goes no I was
Speaker:composition and grammar I said perfect
Speaker:she's falling right in my trap so then I
Speaker:said will you please then
Speaker:conjugate for me in the um
Speaker:in the plus quam perfect the verb to be
Speaker:in all five forms and she's
Speaker:like what I said you're an
Speaker:english major you speak english fluently
Speaker:I can tell it's beautiful
Speaker:english to be is the most
Speaker:common verb in the english language and
Speaker:the plus quam perfect is not
Speaker:an it's a very common tense
Speaker:she goes I don't know what you're asking
Speaker:me I said please give me
Speaker:all five forms of the plus
Speaker:quam perfect the past perfect in all five
Speaker:forms the first person
Speaker:singular second person singular
Speaker:third person singular first person plural
Speaker:and third person plural
Speaker:and she goes I don't get what
Speaker:you're asking me to do I said you've just
Speaker:proven my point I said
Speaker:giving it a name and explaining
Speaker:it and asking to conjugate it doesn't
Speaker:make sense you can't wrap your you're a
Speaker:fluent english speaker
Speaker:and you can't do something that's so
Speaker:common and it doesn't even change it's I
Speaker:had been you had been
Speaker:he or she had been we had been and they
Speaker:had been hasn't even changed
Speaker:in the five forms and then she
Speaker:goes I get your point and she crossed
Speaker:that question off of her list you
Speaker:wouldn't ask it again so that
Speaker:really worked well giving that little
Speaker:explanation because just
Speaker:because you know what the words are
Speaker:the grammar words for things doesn't mean
Speaker:that they know how to use
Speaker:them especially in context
Speaker:and I call that the past of the past in
Speaker:Spanish anyway so that
Speaker:they know that that's what is
Speaker:happening it's we're already in the past
Speaker:we need to go further back in
Speaker:the past and another example
Speaker:of the same thing was my kids I learned
Speaker:from Susie Gross the best way to teach
Speaker:the preterite and the
Speaker:imperfect or the passe compose and the
Speaker:ampuffe so the way we had to
Speaker:learn she said teach it with
Speaker:actions versus descriptions if it's a
Speaker:description in the past it's in the
Speaker:imperfect if it's an action
Speaker:in the past it's in the preterite perfect
Speaker:that's what I did with my
Speaker:kids when I introduced a verb
Speaker:every time we saw something in reading I
Speaker:asked is that an action or
Speaker:description is it an action or
Speaker:description asked it every single time
Speaker:and they got this in their
Speaker:head and they had about an 80
Speaker:accuracy and so this goes to the point
Speaker:where at the end of the semester or end
Speaker:of the year whatever
Speaker:before you pass them on to the next
Speaker:teacher where you're
Speaker:teaching explicit grammar to kind of
Speaker:summarize everything this is what
Speaker:happened to my kids right it was after
Speaker:them um the AP exam and
Speaker:the AP teacher said my kids have nothing
Speaker:left to do because in AP
Speaker:exams in May and we got out in
Speaker:June would it be okay if I sent my kids
Speaker:over to help your kids
Speaker:study for their final exam and I
Speaker:thought well I've got a ton of grading to
Speaker:do hell yes send them on
Speaker:right on over so they did that
Speaker:and they helped them with it and then
Speaker:they gave them whatever the
Speaker:15 rules are for the imperfect
Speaker:and the preterite they gave them all
Speaker:those rules and it screwed my kids up
Speaker:they had 80 accuracy
Speaker:beforehand all the rules started screwing
Speaker:them up they didn't know
Speaker:what to do with it anymore and
Speaker:they got all confused and they bombed
Speaker:that portion of the test
Speaker:because I had to give the textbook
Speaker:test back then um and they did not do so
Speaker:well so lots of times
Speaker:grammar rules are trying to explain
Speaker:something that's really not easily
Speaker:explained grammar rules came after the
Speaker:language we're trying to
Speaker:explain it and that's why there's all
Speaker:these exceptions in there
Speaker:because it's not something
Speaker:you can explain it's something you've got
Speaker:to feel and live and
Speaker:experience and so I found by giving
Speaker:them the explicit grammar even after
Speaker:they've had tons of
Speaker:comprehensible input in my experience
Speaker:it usually messes them up it's better
Speaker:just let the input and their
Speaker:brain figure it out themselves
Speaker:because isn't that what um then patent
Speaker:talks about is that your brain is always
Speaker:constantly remapping
Speaker:based on the input and it's doing that
Speaker:and it's fickling itself
Speaker:and if we try to mess that up
Speaker:then it causes problems there's a one of
Speaker:one of his colleagues um
Speaker:ruffman did a study on this
Speaker:in 2008 I think and they they basically
Speaker:they looked at people
Speaker:who'd learned spanish as an
Speaker:additional language and they divided them
Speaker:into two camps one camp had
Speaker:acquired it naturally like
Speaker:they'd basically just been among spanish
Speaker:speakers and said okay what
Speaker:does that mean what does that
Speaker:mean and then another batch had um had
Speaker:done that but they'd
Speaker:also had had it in school
Speaker:um and one of the things they found was
Speaker:that um the people who
Speaker:learned spanish um who
Speaker:the people who'd been taught spanish and
Speaker:had learned spanish rules
Speaker:had difficulty acquiring
Speaker:um certain aspects of um the distinction
Speaker:between the i guess the imperfect and the
Speaker:uh the preterite in spanish i don't know
Speaker:what they're called like
Speaker:the abba and the that one
Speaker:yeah they basically they basically
Speaker:they'll it's been
Speaker:substantiated in the research that
Speaker:explicit teaching is going to mess up can
Speaker:mess up certain things
Speaker:because the i don't know whatever
Speaker:the conscious brain gets involved or or
Speaker:whatever it was right i mean it's
Speaker:interesting i mean i always
Speaker:when people ask me about this i'm just
Speaker:like look at babies i mean
Speaker:nobody calls a baby anything
Speaker:other than what a word means and they i
Speaker:mean they come out just fine right so
Speaker:yeah nobody gives them
Speaker:a dictionary and a grammar book yeah i uh
Speaker:i i use that that analogy
Speaker:all the time that's my go-to
Speaker:is just be like okay you had a child or
Speaker:you were a child right you
Speaker:had a child if it's someone i
Speaker:know who has children i was like so when
Speaker:your child was learning to
Speaker:speak did you sit them down
Speaker:and say this is the verb to be and this
Speaker:is how you conjugate the
Speaker:verb to be in the present tense
Speaker:like did you do that to your child no you
Speaker:did not okay these are
Speaker:teenagers yes but in in terms
Speaker:of their like their their journey with
Speaker:learning spanish they are
Speaker:babies so we need to treat them
Speaker:like babies and we need to talk to them
Speaker:like we talk to babies um
Speaker:you know not with the like
Speaker:high-pitched miss rachel voices or
Speaker:anything but like you know
Speaker:you need to keep it simple
Speaker:and you know use other methods to make
Speaker:clear what you're saying
Speaker:you know using gestures using
Speaker:drawings using diagrams like you know all
Speaker:the stuff around you props
Speaker:like that is what you need to do
Speaker:new yeah and i'll say um i i was doing a
Speaker:workshop once um in connecticut and um
Speaker:this lady was a native
Speaker:spanish speaker and she was she wasn't
Speaker:exactly on board with what we
Speaker:were doing yet she hadn't made
Speaker:that aha moment but she was explaining to
Speaker:me she said well here's
Speaker:the problem she goes my son
Speaker:speaks spanish fluently because i speak
Speaker:spanish we speak spanish at
Speaker:home but he failed spanish too
Speaker:and i said i already knew what the answer
Speaker:was i knew exactly why
Speaker:he failed spanish too
Speaker:and what it was and so i was trying to
Speaker:get her to self realize this
Speaker:and what it was really great
Speaker:because i had this was probably the most
Speaker:um anti ci workshop i had
Speaker:done almost everybody in there
Speaker:came from a private school in connecticut
Speaker:and they were grammar based textbook
Speaker:based except for one
Speaker:who is a early development teacher and
Speaker:she was a principal that's why she was
Speaker:there but she was an
Speaker:early development teacher she goes all of
Speaker:what you're talking about
Speaker:is speaking right to what
Speaker:we learn in early development for kids
Speaker:and how language develops and
Speaker:all this stuff so she was my
Speaker:my ally in a group of hostels but this
Speaker:teacher was going on and she
Speaker:says my kid failed and i go
Speaker:what happened in level two why did he
Speaker:fail in level two she goes
Speaker:well i don't know i go well
Speaker:what did they start to introduce in level
Speaker:two and i knew preter
Speaker:imperfect is what is going to come
Speaker:in that and she says well the past tense
Speaker:and i said can your kids
Speaker:speak in past tense she goes yeah
Speaker:and did you teach him with the rules no
Speaker:well what did they do in
Speaker:spanish too they introduced those
Speaker:rules and that messed him all up and so
Speaker:that made a big difference
Speaker:she goes i never thought of it
Speaker:that way and i like what hyun lu says she
Speaker:says we aren't teachers we
Speaker:are teacher parents in the
Speaker:classroom and then if you don't what you
Speaker:don't don't do what you
Speaker:wouldn't do with your own child
Speaker:in your classroom so if you wouldn't go
Speaker:ahead and teach the
Speaker:conjugations to your kid then don't
Speaker:teach the conjugations to your students
Speaker:either because that's not
Speaker:how you naturally learn and
Speaker:we have been taught well all of us as
Speaker:human beings are natural language
Speaker:teachers because we all pass
Speaker:the language on to the next generation
Speaker:and perfectly the only
Speaker:people who can't use the next
Speaker:language their language are people with
Speaker:severe disabilities because
Speaker:even mentally challenged kids
Speaker:can learn to speak in in the language so
Speaker:i can't learn a language is
Speaker:a false thing yeah but yeah
Speaker:the problem comes in when we go to school
Speaker:to learn how to become
Speaker:teachers they take that
Speaker:instinct that we have how to teach
Speaker:languages out of us and tell us in a very
Speaker:artificial way to do it
Speaker:and it has not worked because in america
Speaker:they've been requiring
Speaker:language at least two years if not
Speaker:three and most schools to graduate high
Speaker:school throughout the
Speaker:country since the 80s and we still
Speaker:have not become a nation of bilingual
Speaker:speakers so what has been worked what
Speaker:we've been doing hasn't
Speaker:been working and keep on doing it and
Speaker:refining what hasn't worked
Speaker:isn't helping the same is true
Speaker:in canada they they last studied this
Speaker:probably 15 years ago and
Speaker:they basically found that like
Speaker:even people who spent quite a lot of time
Speaker:doing doing french in
Speaker:high school acquired quite
Speaker:relatively little french and obviously
Speaker:it's not because teachers
Speaker:aren't working hard you know
Speaker:every language teacher i know is is you
Speaker:know busting a gut to make
Speaker:it work but yeah the methods
Speaker:are not what they should be or you know
Speaker:we have to we have some
Speaker:updating to do definitely as a
Speaker:profession and that's what makes me crazy
Speaker:is because it's like
Speaker:okay like i i i i i had a
Speaker:colleague at a previous school who um i
Speaker:had taught there my first
Speaker:year and she said that she was
Speaker:going to help me and be there for me and
Speaker:all this stuff and the
Speaker:other and she just disappeared
Speaker:once the school year started and then i
Speaker:think it was the next year
Speaker:the only word she said to me
Speaker:all year was at the end of our all staff
Speaker:meeting at the very beginning of the
Speaker:school year and said
Speaker:hey can you uh make sure that you teach
Speaker:what's in chapters one
Speaker:through four of the textbook like
Speaker:at least the grammar oh yeah and but
Speaker:because the previous year some
Speaker:of my kids had gone to her and
Speaker:because i didn't see i and because i used
Speaker:a completely different
Speaker:curriculum they didn't
Speaker:know the same stuff and i think it caused
Speaker:some frustration for her
Speaker:but like that's the only
Speaker:thing she said to me that year and in my
Speaker:defense i didn't really
Speaker:seek her out and how and i said
Speaker:yeah sure i'll i'll do what i can i'm
Speaker:knowing full well that i'll do
Speaker:what i can was could be me not
Speaker:doing that because i had already
Speaker:attracted you that i was keeping all of
Speaker:my kids for spanish one
Speaker:and two so like and and my internal self
Speaker:my internal self sarcastic
Speaker:self would say i wouldn't
Speaker:say this out loud but i'm thinking it i'm
Speaker:like and could you possibly
Speaker:teach your kids to speak and
Speaker:write yeah because they consider writing
Speaker:like right now on my
Speaker:level two midterm is coming up
Speaker:in two weeks do you know what the writing
Speaker:section is the writing
Speaker:section is fill in the blank fill
Speaker:in the blank my level ones have to write
Speaker:a email but my level
Speaker:twos is fill in a blank
Speaker:what that's the writing section and the
Speaker:speaking section is
Speaker:answering questions like
Speaker:como te llamas que hay en la clase that's
Speaker:all the speaking section is so unlike
Speaker:i see the speaking i mean that's i mean
Speaker:that's boring but that's an
Speaker:actual you know real world
Speaker:communicative task but the fill in the
Speaker:blanks i mean my response
Speaker:to that is show me where that
Speaker:is in the state standards like that's
Speaker:that's that does not fill
Speaker:the definition of communication
Speaker:or any definition that i'm aware of what
Speaker:communication is
Speaker:that's silly no we don't do
Speaker:that in the real world right like i i
Speaker:always think when i see stuff
Speaker:like this i always think about
Speaker:um you know van paten has talked about
Speaker:tasks right and you know
Speaker:and he's um and a language
Speaker:classroom should be focused around task
Speaker:and the task basically has
Speaker:two things for the listeners
Speaker:who don't haven't read this or seen this
Speaker:a task uses the language
Speaker:but it's not about language
Speaker:right um so you know if you're like so
Speaker:for example tell an
Speaker:entertaining story in spanish right well
Speaker:if you're using spanish and the story is
Speaker:entertaining or sad or
Speaker:whatever that's a task
Speaker:right or um you know evaluate something
Speaker:or describe something or
Speaker:compare something right
Speaker:you know these are tasks but like x write
Speaker:down the correct form of
Speaker:the verb i mean that's it
Speaker:that's you're using the language but
Speaker:you're using the language for the
Speaker:language's sake so that's not
Speaker:a task and it's boring and it's you know
Speaker:what's the point yeah i
Speaker:agree 100 but uh that's my
Speaker:all that's always my thinking about that
Speaker:because like one of my
Speaker:kids left my school went to a
Speaker:different school many years ago and she
Speaker:sent me an email after the
Speaker:fact and she said profic this
Speaker:class is really weird because in your
Speaker:class the class was in spanish with a
Speaker:little bit of english
Speaker:but this class is in english with a
Speaker:little bit of spanish and the only real
Speaker:spanish that they hear
Speaker:from is the instructions that are in the
Speaker:textbook that says you know
Speaker:follow the directions here or
Speaker:you know fill in the verb you know just
Speaker:the things and or haban los libros a la
Speaker:pajina you know that
Speaker:the the classroom language is all that
Speaker:they ever hear and the rest is all in
Speaker:english and she goes
Speaker:i'm just not learning what i learned
Speaker:before and then the reverse happened
Speaker:where i had a kid come
Speaker:in it was about the third or fourth week
Speaker:of level one and transferred into my
Speaker:class from a different
Speaker:school and he comes to me after about the
Speaker:end of the first week and
Speaker:he says i think i'm in the
Speaker:wrong class and i'm like why he's like
Speaker:this is ap spanish and i'm supposed to
Speaker:only be in spanish one
Speaker:because we're all speaking in spanish and
Speaker:we're using the language
Speaker:and the class is almost all
Speaker:in the target language and i go this is
Speaker:spanish one he's like really
Speaker:i go yeah this is the third
Speaker:week of spanish one this is where we are
Speaker:and he's like i missed a
Speaker:lot yeah i usually get that
Speaker:uh absolute panic from children who end
Speaker:up with me after not
Speaker:having me for semester one
Speaker:um and every time it happens i'm like if
Speaker:you work with me i'll work
Speaker:with you we'll get through it
Speaker:it's going to take you some time to get
Speaker:your feet wet if you get
Speaker:adjusted but i promise you
Speaker:if you let me know where you're
Speaker:struggling and all that then we'll get
Speaker:through it and like last
Speaker:year i had one who had to come to me for
Speaker:spanish two because of
Speaker:basketball then got cut from the
Speaker:team because of an injury and so they
Speaker:just rearranged their
Speaker:schedule and went back to the
Speaker:other teacher because it just they were
Speaker:like there's no way
Speaker:there's no way for me to go from
Speaker:what i had last semester to your class
Speaker:with where you expect your
Speaker:kids to be is basically what it
Speaker:came down to and i was like you know what
Speaker:valid like i i'm sorry i
Speaker:don't don't think that i think
Speaker:you can't do this because you definitely
Speaker:could do this but i get not
Speaker:wanting to deal with it yeah
Speaker:i know when i get my spanish two kids um
Speaker:and they didn't come from me
Speaker:for the from the previous year
Speaker:their writing is worse than my level one
Speaker:kids so they because they
Speaker:they've only had to write fill
Speaker:in the blanks or maybe a sentence to
Speaker:answer a question como te
Speaker:llamas i have to write up the
Speaker:answer me llamo something that's all
Speaker:they've been expected to do
Speaker:and they've never been pushed
Speaker:beyond that so when i'm asking them to
Speaker:write for 10 minutes in spanish they
Speaker:can't do it and they
Speaker:freak out so i i find that lots of time
Speaker:so i have to tell ease them into it a
Speaker:little bit more of my
Speaker:level twos than i normally would have to
Speaker:but yeah they say they want
Speaker:us to teach it conjugations
Speaker:and this vocabulary and that vocabulary
Speaker:and your kids don't know the
Speaker:word for um biology in spanish
Speaker:or stapler in spanish but i'm like but my
Speaker:kids can communicate you
Speaker:know they can have a simple
Speaker:conversation and they can you know write
Speaker:a story in spanish yeah yeah
Speaker:exactly and and that's kind
Speaker:of what i fall back on too is that's like
Speaker:you know i i find that
Speaker:this works for my kids and
Speaker:what drives what will drive me crazy
Speaker:though is i've had colleagues who are
Speaker:like well they can't
Speaker:my kids can't do that and i was like do
Speaker:you think i have like
Speaker:magically different children than you
Speaker:like this year to be fair this year i do
Speaker:have a section of honors
Speaker:because i asked just to start
Speaker:off at honors program and i do have a
Speaker:section of three and
Speaker:four no but at the same time
Speaker:like i i do not have that radically
Speaker:different of a population
Speaker:like trust me i have some kids
Speaker:who i i question sometimes whether they
Speaker:can actually speak
Speaker:english or not like i mean i
Speaker:have kids who who do not want to be in my
Speaker:class because they don't see
Speaker:a point in learning another
Speaker:language and they plan on going and
Speaker:working a blue collar job
Speaker:okay they're gonna be you know
Speaker:spanish speakers if they do that right
Speaker:yeah that's part of the deal yep and i
Speaker:had to have that i'd
Speaker:have that come to jesus with one who
Speaker:because he was complaining
Speaker:that he um he was upset because
Speaker:i make my kids do actual work every day
Speaker:um and you know we
Speaker:actually do stuff in spanish every
Speaker:day and we don't just like watch movies
Speaker:about nothing and stuff like
Speaker:that and he was complaining
Speaker:about it because the other classroom it's
Speaker:like those kids act like
Speaker:they don't do anything in
Speaker:there and they do do stuff in there um
Speaker:you know and i might not
Speaker:philosophically philosophically
Speaker:agree with what they're doing in there
Speaker:but i do know that they
Speaker:are doing some things at that
Speaker:you know and he just went on this whole
Speaker:thing like i'm never going
Speaker:to use this i'm just going
Speaker:to go work with my dad with my dad at his
Speaker:concrete business and when i saw this
Speaker:whole diatribe and i
Speaker:pulled up a call i was like so let's talk
Speaker:and he immediately
Speaker:apologized he's like really sorry i
Speaker:was just really frustrated that i was
Speaker:like i get that but you do understand
Speaker:that if you were going
Speaker:to go into construction you are going to
Speaker:interact with spanish
Speaker:speakers you do realize that right
Speaker:yes ma'am i was like okay so like there
Speaker:is a value in this and
Speaker:like would you rather
Speaker:actually get something out of your
Speaker:spanish box that you might be
Speaker:able to use on this job that
Speaker:you're going to have working at your
Speaker:dad's company or do you want to sit in
Speaker:the room and stare at your phone
Speaker:yeah like what is actually redeeming the
Speaker:time yeah i mean i would i
Speaker:the kids i get end up like
Speaker:our students are mostly doing this
Speaker:because they they have to
Speaker:have a lot of universities
Speaker:want to want a bit of language to let
Speaker:kids in although that's
Speaker:going away it seems like
Speaker:but i tell kids you know you're never
Speaker:going to regret being
Speaker:able to do something
Speaker:you know you're never going to go oh no i
Speaker:can understand those
Speaker:people oh what a drag i wish
Speaker:that it's never going to happen you know
Speaker:it's like you know it's
Speaker:like with anything else like
Speaker:you know you list weights you're never
Speaker:going to go oh no i'm too
Speaker:strong oh that sucks right yeah
Speaker:um you know you're going to learn a bunch
Speaker:of yeah you know i want
Speaker:to bring up this story like
Speaker:going back to teaching like a baby there
Speaker:is a this is from the yahoo
Speaker:listserv from some years ago but
Speaker:there was a woman who went to africa with
Speaker:her husband and the
Speaker:husband um was uh i think he
Speaker:was sort of there um she was doing
Speaker:something and um and her husband was sort
Speaker:of along for the ride
Speaker:and just and the husband you know agreed
Speaker:all you know teach the
Speaker:local african kids some english
Speaker:and he brought a bunch of kids books and
Speaker:he just basically sat in
Speaker:front of this group for you know
Speaker:an hour a day and like read them fairy
Speaker:tales and sort of pointed at
Speaker:the pictures and um and was
Speaker:um kind of wondering well you know didn't
Speaker:know if the kids were
Speaker:learning anything right because
Speaker:the kids none of the kids spoke english
Speaker:um and at one point he had a kid was
Speaker:misbehaving so he told
Speaker:the kid to go outside and the kid went
Speaker:outside and a minute later
Speaker:the kid was banging on the door
Speaker:and the kid said in perfect english open
Speaker:this door or i'll huff
Speaker:and i'll puff and i'll blow
Speaker:your house down um and there was and
Speaker:there was like dead silence
Speaker:right but and then one of the
Speaker:girls in the class was like no no this is
Speaker:a good house this house is made of brick
Speaker:right you know and so the kids the kids
Speaker:were acquiring now
Speaker:obviously i'm who knows how well
Speaker:they understood but they understood a
Speaker:fair bit and they got appropriate
Speaker:language in context right
Speaker:and so i was you know i always think like
Speaker:yeah you know if you tell
Speaker:them something they're interested
Speaker:in and repeat the words a bunch um it's
Speaker:gonna end up in there and in the long run it's gonna do you
Speaker:some good i mean you may not want to
Speaker:learn spanish or french but you're gonna
Speaker:end up meeting those
Speaker:people or being on a vacation somewhere
Speaker:and you're never gonna go oh damn it i
Speaker:can understand people
Speaker:you know and that reminded me of a story
Speaker:i like to tell a lot too
Speaker:that um of some friends of mine
Speaker:who had a baby they were fighting over um
Speaker:what the first word was
Speaker:going to be for the baby so
Speaker:mom is he gonna be mommy or is he gonna
Speaker:be daddy they're like
Speaker:trying they're giving it as much
Speaker:and the first word was the s word the bad
Speaker:s word uh was the first word
Speaker:and i said look input works
Speaker:you guys kept saying the s word around
Speaker:the baby and the baby picked
Speaker:up on that word off the bat so
Speaker:even like i i remember my in class i used
Speaker:tam poco which means
Speaker:either or neither for those who
Speaker:don't speak spanish um a lot and i didn't
Speaker:realize how much i used it
Speaker:and then one of my kids said
Speaker:when i asked a question he goes tam poco
Speaker:and i was like where did
Speaker:you pick that up he's like
Speaker:you use it all the time i wasn't even
Speaker:trying to target it and
Speaker:didn't realize it came out in my
Speaker:speech a lot and they pick it up because
Speaker:input works yeah my kids
Speaker:have learned um i mean i
Speaker:noticed this a few years ago with ci my
Speaker:kids learned um uh the
Speaker:personal a in spanish like you
Speaker:have to say like like um you know jo
Speaker:konosco a scott you have to
Speaker:have that a in there right
Speaker:and i mean i know i use it um and the
Speaker:kids just started saying
Speaker:it and then they started
Speaker:over generalizing it you know like which
Speaker:is another classic you know
Speaker:kid maneuver they'd be like
Speaker:like well i mean i can't think of an
Speaker:example but yeah the input
Speaker:works you know they get it enough
Speaker:bill language teaching really boils down
Speaker:to three things you say things that
Speaker:people understand you
Speaker:repeat the crap out of it and then you
Speaker:get people to to read that um
Speaker:those words and to listen to
Speaker:those words um in whatever form you know
Speaker:keeps them interested and i
Speaker:think the probably the best
Speaker:way in the long run is stories that's all
Speaker:it really is and then
Speaker:everything else is just like
Speaker:are they paying attention 100 agree and
Speaker:something that blaine has recently said
Speaker:that i really really
Speaker:liked he's never put it this way before
Speaker:but i really appreciate um
Speaker:how he summed this up he said
Speaker:hang on one second hang on one second for
Speaker:our listeners don't know
Speaker:blaine ray is uh the guy
Speaker:who invented or came up with uh the tprs
Speaker:uh teaching method so yeah
Speaker:anyway go on so um he said
Speaker:just recently i was listening to him and
Speaker:he said stories is for
Speaker:fluency you're building an oral
Speaker:fluency with stories and vocab is you get
Speaker:your vocab from reading
Speaker:and i've always done that you
Speaker:know subconsciously but i never heard it
Speaker:put into words before
Speaker:because like this is how i get
Speaker:through my textbook in my class for those
Speaker:who are trying to figure out
Speaker:how to meld the ci with the
Speaker:textbook i write stories about my kids
Speaker:every single week so i
Speaker:have oral stories and i have
Speaker:written stories and i'll make the oral
Speaker:stories i'll make them
Speaker:into cartoons and we work on
Speaker:but i'm not really trying to hit the
Speaker:vocab with it i'm working on the the
Speaker:super seven and the sweet
Speaker:16 that's what i'm working out with the
Speaker:stories but in my readings
Speaker:we do two readings and two
Speaker:listings as independent practice um for
Speaker:my kids every week and these
Speaker:are stories about them so i
Speaker:write them every week every class i've
Speaker:got new stories but that's
Speaker:where i go through and i make
Speaker:sure that i'm hitting the vocabulary that
Speaker:i'm supposed to be
Speaker:teaching in there so they're
Speaker:getting exposed when we do our class
Speaker:readings they see the vocabulary when and
Speaker:i can ask about it and
Speaker:we can talk about it when they do then
Speaker:their independent
Speaker:practice on reading and listening
Speaker:they're also getting that vocabulary so
Speaker:that's where they're
Speaker:getting that vocabulary exposure
Speaker:because we learn vocabulary through
Speaker:reading and i had a kid
Speaker:years ago who said i can't learn
Speaker:vocabulary i i just can't i'm just not
Speaker:good at it but he was a car
Speaker:parts guy so he could name
Speaker:every part of a car that nobody even
Speaker:cared what it was called and he knew
Speaker:every single one and i'm
Speaker:like well you know all this vocabulary i
Speaker:don't know any of that
Speaker:vocabulary and he goes well yeah it
Speaker:was easy i'm like and what did you do and
Speaker:he couldn't figure out
Speaker:what he did i knew exactly
Speaker:what he did he reads car magazines and
Speaker:car part magazines and stuff like that
Speaker:and that's where you
Speaker:picked up all that vocabulary and if you
Speaker:do the same with the spanish
Speaker:you'll pick up the vocabulary
Speaker:as well i am not for making my readings
Speaker:100 percent comprehensible
Speaker:i like to make them about 95
Speaker:comprehensible so they have to grow a
Speaker:little bit and use context clues to
Speaker:stretch because in the
Speaker:real world they're not going to know
Speaker:every single word so they need to not
Speaker:they need to feel that in
Speaker:a safe environment in the classroom feel
Speaker:that uncomfortability a
Speaker:little bit so that they're
Speaker:used to it when they get it in the real
Speaker:world and don't freeze like deer in
Speaker:headlights yeah yeah
Speaker:they got to learning how to get the gist
Speaker:of something without
Speaker:understanding every word is
Speaker:an important skill to learn absolutely
Speaker:and and it's a hard it
Speaker:can be hard to teach that
Speaker:and it's hard to strike that balance it's
Speaker:ci between them understanding everything
Speaker:and them getting used to not
Speaker:understanding everything
Speaker:because it is a tightrope we got to
Speaker:balance i'm a bit of a contrarian with
Speaker:this because um i don't
Speaker:like i don't i don't really
Speaker:other than like giving people the feeling
Speaker:of not knowing what
Speaker:something is i don't know if you can
Speaker:actually learn anything from that like i
Speaker:mean and it's also it seems
Speaker:to me that like that's going
Speaker:to happen probably even in a classroom i
Speaker:mean you guys if you guys
Speaker:ever go to a ci demo you know
Speaker:like where you're learning it you're
Speaker:learning you know some
Speaker:hebrew or swedish or whatever
Speaker:you know that if you tune out for like
Speaker:you know 30 seconds you
Speaker:know you kind of lose the plot
Speaker:and so i i kind of think that kids are
Speaker:going through that like oh i don't
Speaker:entirely know what's
Speaker:going on anyway um in the in a regular
Speaker:classroom and also i'm you
Speaker:know i have this thing that i
Speaker:notice every year you know kibble asked
Speaker:me in like march or whatever like how do
Speaker:you say there is and
Speaker:i'm like my god i've used this word 87
Speaker:000 times this year you
Speaker:know and so um and you still
Speaker:haven't picked it up or maybe you have
Speaker:but you're not making the
Speaker:connection like you just
Speaker:you you'll understand it when you see it
Speaker:but you can't generate it or
Speaker:whatever so i i'm i'm i don't
Speaker:i think what happened in the classroom
Speaker:should be 100 percent
Speaker:comprehensible because the non
Speaker:comprehensibility to me is it's a time
Speaker:waster um and for the kids
Speaker:like the egghead kids the
Speaker:real you know the studious steves or
Speaker:whatever those kids will
Speaker:they'll nerd out like they'll
Speaker:go to the back of the book and like you
Speaker:know look it up or they'll read the
Speaker:footnote or whatever
Speaker:or they've got enough of an of an english
Speaker:background that they
Speaker:can you know figure out
Speaker:if it's a cognate but quite a lot of our
Speaker:kids don't do that like if
Speaker:they if they see the word
Speaker:and they don't get it that's that like
Speaker:they're just like whatever
Speaker:you know what i mean and so um
Speaker:you know i mean my my view is that things
Speaker:should be comprehensible
Speaker:because the incomprehensibility
Speaker:is going to show up anyway elsewhere you
Speaker:know but anyway that's i
Speaker:would agree with the oral but
Speaker:in the reading i do put words in there
Speaker:that assessment like
Speaker:questions that go on it never
Speaker:are are for them they're not required to
Speaker:know those words to be
Speaker:able to answer the questions
Speaker:but it stretches their thinking they use
Speaker:context clues to figure it
Speaker:out it's in reading where i do
Speaker:that to make sure um and i find that my
Speaker:kids their vocabulary
Speaker:expands greater with that i
Speaker:wouldn't do that orally because they
Speaker:can't go back and see the
Speaker:word you know that once i said
Speaker:it it's gone but with a with written they
Speaker:can go back and see it and
Speaker:you know analyze it if they
Speaker:need to and some kids don't you're right
Speaker:they'll just skip right
Speaker:over it and some kids will and
Speaker:then i'll also mention when you said
Speaker:something about um you know
Speaker:asking about i way in late in
Speaker:the year this is something that um both
Speaker:susie gross mentioned
Speaker:before i even knew who van paten
Speaker:was and then van paten talks about it as
Speaker:well that kids only learn
Speaker:something or acquire something
Speaker:when their brain is ready to acquire it
Speaker:and not everybody requires it
Speaker:at the same speed so although
Speaker:you said it 87 000 times for those 87 000
Speaker:times that kid was not ready to
Speaker:comprehend it he needed
Speaker:the 87 000 and one time to do that so i
Speaker:let my kids know all the
Speaker:time that they're welcome to
Speaker:ask questions anytime you can ask on the
Speaker:same you can ask me the same
Speaker:question over and over again
Speaker:because your brain just isn't ready to
Speaker:absorb it just yet so keep asking until
Speaker:it is it's perfectly
Speaker:fine but a lot of you know textbook
Speaker:especially because you have
Speaker:two weeks to teach a chapter
Speaker:and then they assess it and they expect
Speaker:you to memorize the
Speaker:hundred words that were in that
Speaker:chapter by the end of that two weeks and
Speaker:then move on that's not
Speaker:realistic that's not humans humans
Speaker:can't do that computers can do that but
Speaker:humans can't do that
Speaker:we're not retaining all that
Speaker:information and there's not a deadline to
Speaker:it that two weeks you have
Speaker:to master this because we're
Speaker:moving on because that's also a big
Speaker:fallacy although we have to
Speaker:we have to we should clarify
Speaker:one thing so you're you're talking about
Speaker:order development right
Speaker:which is basically when when
Speaker:the you know when the brain is ready the
Speaker:it's acquired story it's
Speaker:my i have a boa constrictor
Speaker:and a couple of dogs here and and they
Speaker:are behaving as animals
Speaker:should which is doing whatever they
Speaker:want but anyway the i'm going to keep it
Speaker:keep an eye on my pup order
Speaker:development doesn't refer to
Speaker:vocabulary right like i mean people will
Speaker:learn the vocab that you
Speaker:teach them if assuming they
Speaker:pay attention to the input order
Speaker:development is more for what things like
Speaker:we would call grammar
Speaker:rules you know i mean and for if you're a
Speaker:spanish teacher the the i mean the
Speaker:classic one is is the
Speaker:plural forms of verbs you know the kids
Speaker:will say um you know no such
Speaker:as s or no such or whatever
Speaker:though i mean i you know they'll make
Speaker:mistakes like that and it
Speaker:takes a lot of input to make
Speaker:that work even if it's explained but i
Speaker:your point about asking questions and
Speaker:them not remembering
Speaker:the bits of vocab that's still i agree
Speaker:with you on that like you
Speaker:know they they need to hear it a
Speaker:lot and um and maybe they have been
Speaker:paying attention to the
Speaker:input but whatever it is like
Speaker:the only solution is you know ask
Speaker:questions and give them more input right
Speaker:yeah i mean i will say
Speaker:this i've i've i've started learning
Speaker:spanish in 2006 yeah no 2007
Speaker:and like so it's been almost
Speaker:20 years since i started learning spanish
Speaker:i still cannot reliably
Speaker:remember the word for fork
Speaker:like and i tell my kids that i tell my
Speaker:kids that i was like listen
Speaker:there's gonna be stuff that you
Speaker:like don't know and that you might never
Speaker:learn like i don't and then
Speaker:and then immediately they're
Speaker:like oh well how do you say fork and i'm
Speaker:like i just told you i
Speaker:don't know like don't ask me
Speaker:that there's dictionary over there look
Speaker:at that pick a lot of funny
Speaker:aside with that my kids want
Speaker:to know how to say spork and you know
Speaker:there's no such word as a
Speaker:spork and so they made up a word
Speaker:a cuchador why not i like that perfect i
Speaker:like that a cuchador they
Speaker:made it up they took tenidor
Speaker:which is fork by the way jackie yeah yeah
Speaker:and kuchara i do actually
Speaker:i i actually learned the
Speaker:word because that's awesome every year um
Speaker:so like now it is very much
Speaker:a thing where like yes i know
Speaker:how i know to say tenidor for fork but i
Speaker:still i still do it for the bit is
Speaker:essentially what it is
Speaker:i know and i i play do you know how many
Speaker:stories had to write with
Speaker:cuchador and then after the
Speaker:kids came up with that word i wrote they
Speaker:were always like dami um
Speaker:cuchador i want a cuchador
Speaker:i had to go to to um where'd i go kfc and
Speaker:i asked if i could have some extra
Speaker:cuchadores so that we
Speaker:could um bring them in class i can use
Speaker:them as props because you
Speaker:know they just like that word
Speaker:cuchador cuchador and it was just kind of
Speaker:funny it's kind of funny
Speaker:using their brains because i
Speaker:was trying to because we have what's
Speaker:called skinny block it's our scott it's
Speaker:our second block of the
Speaker:day and it's like a shorter block and one
Speaker:day i was like trying to talk about
Speaker:something and rather
Speaker:than use the actual word for skinny i
Speaker:just said eskini and the class that i
Speaker:studied in they like
Speaker:stay at all the time now because it's
Speaker:just their favorite thing ever ever
Speaker:they're just like no
Speaker:no delgado eskini whatever i know the
Speaker:things that they pick up well we are
Speaker:coming to an end and so
Speaker:i want to say let's what let's write well
Speaker:i can't speak this morning
Speaker:let's wrap this up with one
Speaker:good recommendation we want to leave um
Speaker:our viewers and listeners
Speaker:with um about what to do
Speaker:about that grammar piece so who would
Speaker:like to go first well
Speaker:uh okay i mean i'll just
Speaker:more input it's what they need if they're
Speaker:not if they're you know if
Speaker:they're not if they're key
Speaker:if they say things like um you know las
Speaker:chicas um s alto or
Speaker:whatever right they obviously know
Speaker:the words and they can communicate
Speaker:meaning the only way you're gonna you
Speaker:know fix that grammar
Speaker:problem um is through input more input
Speaker:it's the only thing in the long run
Speaker:that's gonna work yes
Speaker:in the short term you can worksheet your
Speaker:kids and you can explain
Speaker:things and you can make your
Speaker:your grammar games or put them on you
Speaker:know do quiz let stuff or
Speaker:whatever but in the long run
Speaker:the only thing that's going to work is
Speaker:input yeah yeah what about
Speaker:jack yeah um i'm gonna say get
Speaker:them to read uh the reading part is what
Speaker:will uh help them the most
Speaker:because when you are reading
Speaker:you are going to get proper grammar and
Speaker:the more repetition of that proper
Speaker:grammar that you get
Speaker:the more you're going to internalize it
Speaker:yeah um you can stop it what
Speaker:now you can stop and go back
Speaker:yeah yeah that's the view i agree i use
Speaker:reading to teach the
Speaker:grammar too so that's where all my
Speaker:pop-ups come in i don't interrupt my oral
Speaker:stories with pop-ups i
Speaker:do it all in the reading
Speaker:because they can see it they can refer
Speaker:back to it all that kind of
Speaker:stuff they can highlight it in
Speaker:their own version of the paper if they
Speaker:want it's all there and
Speaker:i'm going to take a different
Speaker:approach um in my i'm going to address
Speaker:what to do about your colleagues who are
Speaker:pressuring you about
Speaker:the grammar in there because usually not
Speaker:admins very often um i've
Speaker:never had an admin that was
Speaker:a language teacher prior it's always been
Speaker:something else um but
Speaker:language but teachers often
Speaker:will talk about the grammar especially if
Speaker:you know they they've
Speaker:been teaching for a while
Speaker:and back in the day when they started
Speaker:teaching you know ci was not
Speaker:a thing was not talked about
Speaker:and it it's still kind of rare it's not
Speaker:always in all the pedagogy
Speaker:classes and such but um i would
Speaker:say instead of trying to convert them or
Speaker:explain your system show
Speaker:them the results show them what
Speaker:your kid show them what your kids can do
Speaker:because then if they're good
Speaker:teachers and there are good
Speaker:textbook teachers and good grammar
Speaker:teachers so we're not saying that it's
Speaker:you're a bad teacher
Speaker:if you're doing grammar and textbook and
Speaker:you're a good teacher if
Speaker:you're doing ci that that's
Speaker:how it works but if they're a good
Speaker:teacher good teachers are always looking
Speaker:for better ways to do
Speaker:what they do they're not always doing the
Speaker:same thing over and over
Speaker:they're looking for new
Speaker:inventive ways to do it so then you show
Speaker:them a quick write that
Speaker:your kids wrote 120 words in
Speaker:10 minutes they're like what we only
Speaker:require five sentences on our
Speaker:final exam to be able to write
Speaker:how did you get that to do that and then
Speaker:you connect you can show
Speaker:them and invite them to see
Speaker:how they do that or give them a sample of
Speaker:like i record all their um
Speaker:speaking so i because if a kid
Speaker:ever questioned me or a parent or anybody
Speaker:questions man go back to the speak and
Speaker:say this is what they
Speaker:did and this is what they didn't do so i
Speaker:record them all and so i
Speaker:can i can bring them out and i
Speaker:can say listen this is what my kid can do
Speaker:and then they can go oh and then they
Speaker:might if they're you
Speaker:know they might just say oh that's great
Speaker:and move on and they might be
Speaker:go well how did you get your
Speaker:kids do that because here in the united
Speaker:states at least in
Speaker:california we're on a big group of
Speaker:plc's um
Speaker:professional learning communities
Speaker:couldn't i got a frog in my throat and so
Speaker:we're supposed to be
Speaker:analyzing data and looking and saying oh
Speaker:your kids did this really really well
Speaker:what did you do to get
Speaker:them there so that we can all get our
Speaker:kids to the same level and so we're
Speaker:supposed to be analyzing
Speaker:everybody's teaching to find out what
Speaker:works best that's best
Speaker:practices and so i found instead of
Speaker:trying to convert them because you're not
Speaker:going to convert them because nobody
Speaker:wants to be converted
Speaker:they want it to be their own idea to come
Speaker:to that conclusion and so
Speaker:just give them the evidence of
Speaker:that and let them come to their own
Speaker:conclusions and their own
Speaker:ways to do it that's how i found
Speaker:works best for me because i used to be
Speaker:the evangelist when i
Speaker:first started teaching
Speaker:when i found out about ci in 2001 and i
Speaker:went i was the evangelist and
Speaker:i you know caused a wall to go
Speaker:up between me and some other teachers
Speaker:because i was basically saying my way is
Speaker:better than your way
Speaker:and that never comes across well yeah
Speaker:yeah and it's also not
Speaker:sustainable like the second even
Speaker:if you get them to convert the second you
Speaker:leave they're gonna go
Speaker:back to what they're familiar
Speaker:with yeah um yeah because i was the same
Speaker:way at my first school and
Speaker:my second school i was like
Speaker:i'm not even bothering and i mean at this
Speaker:school i gave the other
Speaker:teacher the copy of tprs
Speaker:um i think the seventh edition and then
Speaker:the 2.0 book and said have at it and
Speaker:most of it went right over their head and
Speaker:that's fine yeah yeah you
Speaker:have to have an impetus and i'll
Speaker:tell you like my impetus was i sucked at
Speaker:grammar teaching i sucked
Speaker:at textbook teaching i did it
Speaker:for one semester and i'm like i can't do
Speaker:this for 30 years there's
Speaker:just no way i'm so bored and if
Speaker:i'm bored they're bored so i found ci on
Speaker:my own in second semester and i went
Speaker:whole hog in it because
Speaker:for me i needed something else and it
Speaker:clicked for me doesn't
Speaker:always click for everybody but it
Speaker:clicked for me and it came out of the
Speaker:impetus for me to be better
Speaker:at what i was doing because
Speaker:what i was doing sucked and so that's
Speaker:what i have found and i dread you know
Speaker:when my kids take me up
Speaker:on it when i threaten them and go if we
Speaker:don't pay attention we're
Speaker:gonna go to the textbook
Speaker:and they're like okay let's go i'm like
Speaker:oh crap now what do i do because i have
Speaker:i have because i don't know how to teach
Speaker:the textbook you know i
Speaker:just have to explain that
Speaker:hey i'm all kinds of grammar activities
Speaker:i'm trying to make it as boring as
Speaker:possible so they beg to go
Speaker:back that's what i try to do but i have
Speaker:no i've only taught the
Speaker:grammar from a textbook in one
Speaker:for one semester and then in that school
Speaker:for the other i was in that
Speaker:school for four years so for
Speaker:the other three and a half years i had to
Speaker:merge with the textbook
Speaker:and do it and we had a tprs
Speaker:supplement with that textbook back then
Speaker:it was paso a paso is what we
Speaker:worked with so that helped me
Speaker:along the way and i could say i'm
Speaker:teaching the textbook because this is
Speaker:part of the textbook
Speaker:this came with it and it's the tpr
Speaker:supplements they're written
Speaker:by um karen roan and the level
Speaker:one ones were good and even she agrees
Speaker:the level two ones were crap
Speaker:because they kept making her
Speaker:change them and and make them more fit
Speaker:into the grammar scope so
Speaker:the second second level wasn't
Speaker:as good as the first level but i loved
Speaker:teaching from that and it
Speaker:worked really well with merging
Speaker:that grammar and the vocabulary with the
Speaker:textbook and using ci yeah
Speaker:so with that we're going to go
Speaker:ahead and say goodbye thank you so much
Speaker:everybody for joining us today because
Speaker:that's a wrap on this
Speaker:episode of comprehend this i want to give
Speaker:a huge thanks to chris and
Speaker:jackie for helping us talk
Speaker:through what to say and what not to say
Speaker:when the grammar police come a knockin
Speaker:and if today reminded
Speaker:you that you don't need to abandon good
Speaker:instruction just to keep everyone
Speaker:comfortable then it did its
Speaker:job be sure to subscribe leave a review
Speaker:and share this episode with another
Speaker:language teacher who's
Speaker:been asked for more worksheets this year
Speaker:and remember you can
Speaker:watch live on youtube or catch
Speaker:the replay on your favorite podcast app
Speaker:ditch the drills trust the process and
Speaker:i'll see you next time
Speaker:on comprehend this goodbye everybody bye
